patrick.net

Okay, I did have blonde hair when I was a kid. I just snapped to the fact that the B in PlanB is bitcorn lol... I just never really though about it!

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still in early stages of Bitcoin being adopted worldwide, and it helped a lot that major brokerages like Blackrock have Bitcoin exchange traded funds



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Remember that fiat currencies are so worthless & crypto currencies so valuable that dealers in crypto will sell crypto to you in exchange for your worthless fiat currency ....

At least 20 million new bitcoin addresses — about 1.5% of all bitcoin addresses in existence — have been created in the past three months, according to crypto data and analytics firm Glassnode.

The ratio between the prices at which new bitcoin is being bought and sold, known as the spent output profit ratio, has meanwhile dipped to 0.95, its lowest level in over a year and negative for the first time since October, according to estimates from crypto exchange Bitfinex.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/investing/2025/03/13/bitcoin-investors-harsh-reality/82373078007/?tbref=hp

https://bitcoinist.com/crypto-reserve-controversy-poll-shows-americans-arent-on-board/

“Only 10% of voters believe the U.S. should increase federal funding for cryptocurrency and blockchain development"

Among Republican voters, 36% of them wanted to decrease the federal funding for digital assets while 31% of them said they wanted the government to retain the current level of spending on digital assets. About 12% of the voters wanted to increase federal spending on cryptos.

About 45% of the respondents wanted to reduce the federal funding for cryptocurrency and blockchain development while 29% of them stated the government should keep the current level of spending on cryptos.

Among Democrat voters, 52% of them wanted to decrease the federal funding for digital assets while 26% of them said they wanted the government to retain the current level of spending on cryptos. Only 9% of the voters wanted to increase federal spending on digital assets.

AD says

“Only 10% of voters believe the U.S. should increase federal funding for cryptocurrency and blockchain development"

1) load of shit pushed by Bitcoin whales who want the taxpayer to bail them out.

or

2) 10% of voters are ignorant morons.

There are over 37 million different crypto tokens.

I don't think we need the governments help to develop more of them.

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El Salvador's government owns about 6,700 Bitcoins. The USA government owns about 214,000 Bitcoins, or about $214 billion dollars, and owns about $900 billion in gold.

Ukraine has received about 46,000 Bitcoins through donations since the start of Russia's invasion, which is around $46 billion. Use this to at least rebuild and repair residential buildings.

One benefit of owning that much assets is that banks like Charles Schwab Bank would lend money such as through Pledged Asset Line (PAL) at the prime rate (now about 7.5%) or even a lot less lower rate. I know the rich do this to avoid paying capital gains tax of 20%.

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Main St., Greenville, SC.

MolotovCocktail says

Good! The Federal Government should do the same.

Taxpayers should not be exit liquidity for crypto bros!

I don't care what nonsense people buy or invest in... that's up to them. But they should pay their taxes on gains, and eat their own losses.. just like any other asset. Don't get taxpayers involved in subsidizing their exit strategy.

DeficitHawk says

MolotovCocktail says

Good! The Federal Government should do the same.

Taxpayers should not be exit liquidity for crypto bros!

I don't care what nonsense people buy or invest in... that's up to them. But they should pay their taxes on gains, and eat their own losses.. just like any other asset. Don't get taxpayers involved in subsidizing their exit strategy.

You mean like Obummer put the taxpayers on the hook to foot the entire 2008 financial crisis? While I prefer investing into equities I don't see how bitcoin is different from fiat money, it's a real alternative, and the price is reflecting it. All the bitcoin haters could have prospered from buying bitcoin but instead they just keep bashing it and keep being wrong. I can see many problems with bitcoin but I'm glad I'm at least tangentially invested through a fund which holds a partial bitcoin investment even though I have been somewhat perma skeptic on it. It's here to stay. Might as well make fun of the disintegrating dollar, Euro now again around 1.20 highs

mell says

I can see many problems with bitcoin but I'm glad I'm at least tangentially invested

You do you!

Not the taxpayers circus, not the taxpayers monkeys.

I have no problem if people buy or hold bitcoin. Thats not my concern.

But I have a big problem with the people who are asking for Bitcoin to have some special tax exempt status, or use public funds to prop it up.

Buy it, Hold it, Sell it, whatever. Pay your taxes, eat your losses, dont involve the taxpayers or ask for special status.

DeficitHawk says

I have no problem if people buy or hold bitcoin. Thats not my concern.

But I have a big problem with the people who are asking for Bitcoin to have some special tax exempt status, or use public funds to prop it up.

Buy it, Hold it, Sell it, whatever. Pay your taxes, eat your losses, dont involve the taxpayers or ask for special status.

Agreed, treat it like every other investment. No need to ban it though for states or federally, it's as safe/unsafe as whatever else the pension funds invest in. Maybe more volatile, although not lately.

mell says

Agreed, treat it like every other investment. No need to ban it though for states or federally

Oh agree. I dont want to ban it. I dont want to treat it differently from other investments.

BUT theres a huge push from the crypto community to do exactly that.
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/takes/senator-lummis-new-bitcoin-tax-exemption-bill-is-insufficient-but-its-a-start

This is a senator trying to make Bitcoin capital gains tax exempt, and the crypto bros are saying the exemption limit is too low! This is the sort of thing I'm opposed to.

DeficitHawk says

This is a senator trying to make Bitcoin capital gains tax exempt, and the crypto bros are saying the exemption limit is too low! This is the sort of thing I'm opposed to.

Yes, same as for capital gains on sale of first home, they should lower capital gains across the board by getting rid of exemptions. Even short and long term distinction is bs. What if Joe schmoe hits it big with a stock but then desperately needs the money for unforeseen expenses? Why does he get punished with the regular income tax rate. Even better would be a low flat tax on any sort of income, be it day job(s) or investments. Do away with loopholes and keep it simple and fair.

mell says

Do away with loopholes and keep it simple and fair.

YES!

Tax code that fits on a business card and you never need an accountant again. "Add up your income... pay this amount, no exceptions".

I'd add hsa/fsa, charitable donations, 501c organizations to the list of exclusions to get rid of. They just distort behavior and cause extra accounting burden.

I would like this too, but each of those loopholes was bought by some group seeking to benefit itself, and promoted by some Congressman who sponsored the bill to prove he was "doing something".

How can the rest of us fight such an old and well-oiled machine which creates complexity to benefit certain interests?

DeficitHawk says

mell says

Do away with loopholes and keep it simple and fair.

YES!

Tax code that fits on a business card and you never need an accountant again. "Add up your income... pay this amount, no exceptions".

I'd add hsa/fsa, charitable donations, 501c organizations to the list of exclusions to get rid of. They just distort behavior and cause extra accounting burden.

Absolutely, of course CPAs won't like it. You know though you won't find anyone on the left supporting a simple flat tax, probably neither on the mainstream Republican side, you likely would have to vote for a Libertarian of sorts. I would vote for a flat tax on any income, as long as it's 20% or below (roughly), the lower the better.

mell says

DeficitHawk says

mell says

Do away with loopholes and keep it simple and fair.

YES!

Tax code that fits on a business card and you never need an accountant again. "Add up your income... pay this amount, no exceptions".

I'd add hsa/fsa, charitable donations, 501c organizations to the list of exclusions to get rid of. They just distort behavior and cause extra accounting burden.

Absolutely, of course CPAs won't like it. You know though you won't find anyone on the left supporting a simple flat tax, probably neither on the mainstream Republican side, you likely would have to vote for a Libertarian of sorts. I would vote for a flat tax on any income, as long as it's 20% or below (roughly), the lower the better.

Hey, how about a flat 3% tax based on a households assets??? --- That's fair, I mean everyone pays the same rate and it's a flat tax/

A tax system can be easy or fair. It cannot be both.

mell says

I would vote for a flat tax on any income

That would be straight forward for W2 types, but what about businesses? The code would have to find a way to determine expenses and depreciation. Even a simple lawn company would have to figure how to expense the trucks, trailers, mowers and related equipment. It would be grossly unfair to tax his revenue as though it was net income.

DeficitHawk says

Tax code that fits on a business card and you never need an accountant again. "Add up your income... pay this amount, no exceptions".

So, only W2 types are taxed? Simple wage earners do not need accountants now and can do their federal income tax in minutes.

HeadSet says

mell says

I would vote for a flat tax on any income

That would be straight forward for W2 types, but what about businesses? The code would have to find a way to determine expenses and depreciation. Even a simple lawn company would have to figure how to expense the trucks, trailers, mowers and related equipment. It would be grossly unfair to tax his revenue as though it was net income.

The CPAs could still own the more complex business tax codes ;) This was mainly for W2s yes.

Id let the first $20000 be 0%. then 25% after that, or whatever number would be needed to balance the budget... That would cover the 'progressive' in me. Flat vs not flat is not hard to manage.. its the deductions.

I'm sure peoples situations vary, but lots of W2 folks have complex tax situations. People have tax exempt FSA, they donate to charitable 501C, or their church/religious organization... they have continuing education... they have a tax credit for something, low income tax credit, childcare, healthcare deductions , solar panels/ev or whatever is being subsidized this week.. etc... they have some stock they hold that paid dividends, etc etc. It can get complicated quickly, especially when the state has different rules than the feds and it all has to be done separately. All of these things have some motivation why they exist in the tax code, but they still just distort behavior and cause accounting burden. I think we'd be better of if we get rid of all of it.

Misc says

Hey, how about a flat 3% tax based on a households assets??? - That's fair, I mean everyone pays the same rate and it's a flat tax/

How would you trace assets held in other countries. While the problem is similar for gains from foreign assets it's easier to trace and tax distributions than assets which can easily be held in someone else's name. For domestic assets this would work easier.

Anyhow, Im sure there are different threads for tax policy.

I just dont want Bitcoin or Crypto to gain special status within our tax system, even though the crypto-bros are pushing hard for this.

Its just an asset. Buy it, sell it, and pay the taxes if there is a gain. Don't make the taxpayers become exit liquidity for the crypto-bros.

And don't let the government try to recognize crypto that is owned by a small set of bros as anything other than a taxable asset.

DeficitHawk says

Don't make the taxpayers become exit liquidity

This is an imaginary boogeyman unless the govt is buying on margin and I haven't heard shiite about that.

DeficitHawk says

Its just an asset. Buy it, sell it, and pay the taxes if there is a gain.

That is easy to calculate if someone buys Bitcoin with dollars and later sells that same Bitcoin for dollars. What about someone who is paid in Bitcoin and uses that Bitcoin to make a purchase at a later date? If I am paid for a job in Canadian dollars and later spend those Canadian dollars, is there a capital gain tax if the Canadian dollar gained in value to the American dollar?

HeadSet says

What about someone who is paid in Bitcoin and uses that Bitcoin to make a purchase at a later date? If I am paid for a job in Canadian dollars and later spend those Canadian dollars, is there a capital gain tax if the Canadian dollar gained in value to the American dollar?

Same as being paid in stock, or any other non-USD payment/transaction. You value the asset at fair market value in USD at the time of each transaction. Payment for work is earned income. Appreciation/loss while you hold it after that is capital gains. Payment for goods by barter is treated as a transaction at the market value of the goods at the time of transaction. If you hold an appreciated (unrealized gain) asset and then trade it for goods, YES of course you owe capital gains tax, since that's realizing the gain. That applies to stock, foreign currency, precious metals, beanie babies, and any other liquid asset you can think of.

There is nothing special or difficult about doing this for bitcoin.

Misc says

Hey, how about a flat 3% tax based on a households assets??? - That's fair, I mean everyone pays the same rate and it's a flat tax/

A land value tax would be much better.

No one created land, so taxing it does not inhibit land creation.

But taxing income inhibits work, and taxing sales inhibits commerce.

HeadSet says

That is easy to calculate if someone buys Bitcoin with dollars and later sells that same Bitcoin for dollars. What about someone who is paid in Bitcoin and uses that Bitcoin to make a purchase at a later date? If I am paid for a job in Canadian dollars and later spend those Canadian dollars, is there a capital gain tax if the Canadian dollar gained in value to the American dollar?

Either way, you owe income tax in US dollars at the value at time you were paid. AND you may owe cap gains later on.

Maga_Chaos_Monkey says

This is an imaginary boogeyman unless the govt is buying on margin and I haven't heard shiite about that.

Everything the government buys, it buys on margin....

The crypto-bros will try to convince the government to give it special status like tax-free appreciation (which cheats all the other taxpayers by increasing the deficit just to pump bitcoin price)... or worse, to buy it with tax dollars and hold it as a reserve... These are both ways to shovel taxpayer money into the crypto-bros pockets and have the taxpayer become the ultimate bagholder.

Either way, the taxpayers will wind up paying off a bunch of debt that was accrued pumping up asset prices for crypto-bros to cash in on. Lets not have that happen!

Its not an imaginary bogeyman... The cryptobros are lobbying bigtime for these things already. One senator has already introduced a bill to give it tax free status.

DeficitHawk says

Everything the government buys, it buys on margin....

Mostly if not entirely so far the government has it from criminal confiscation.

mell says

I don't see how bitcoin is different from fiat money, it's a real alternative, and the price is reflecting it. All the bitcoin haters could have prospered from buying bitcoin but instead they just keep bashing it and keep being wrong.

I disagree.
Bitcoin is not an alternative for "fiat money". You can't really buy anything with it as it is too slow and cumbersome for retail transactions. It IS fiat money for the fact that you buy and sell it for fiat and it is valued in fiat.

The price is so high because the supply is so low. If a million people want to buy $20 worth in a day and less than 500 "coins" are "mined" each day then each coin would be worth $40,000. The actual transaction rate is over 500,000 per day. Artificially low supply and high demand causes the price to be so high.

I'm not a gambler. Bitcoin is not an investment. It has no assets backing it. It's a Ponzi scheme where the only way you can make money on it is to sell it to a greater fool for more money than you payed for it.

Onvacation says

Bitcoin is not an alternative for "fiat money". You can't really buy anything with it as it is too slow and cumbersome for retail transactions. It IS fiat money for the fact that you buy and sell it for fiat and it is valued in fiat.

People have been making bitcoin transactions all the time without converting it to fiat money, not different from a wire. Part of the allure of course is/was that the government didn't tax it. Governments have been regulating around this as much as possible to get paid, using official/public exchanges etc. and new laws. I'm sure many still skirt it if you know how to, but even without the no fee/tax advantage there is another allure that it's append only and once a transaction has been written there is proof of it, vs banks and regulators who can fudge your.bank accounts to their likings as seen in Canada. This is intrinsic value backed by blockchain tech. Now if you say many dont care about this value then that may be true, as all value is subjective and subject to current conditions. Like you said not that many do habe to "value" it as the supply is scarce enough, so it has been a pretty well performing asset. It's very similar to fiat imo as opposed to gold, silver, or company/stock investmentd for example. Gambling refers more to how you trade/invest as to what you are trading/investing in, no?

mell says

Gambling refers more to how you trade/invest as to what you are trading/investing in, no?

Speculate?
When you invest in stocks you are investing in real people making real things. Your investment pays dividends and grows. The economy grows.

When you speculate in crypto, massive amounts of computer processing power and electricity are expended and you hope that someone will pay you more for it in the future. If the lights don't go out the bits go away.

You can call me a hater.

For a long time, I was content to ignore crypto and let the gamblers gamble. Its a zero sum game and there will be winners and losers... but whatever. Let the people have their fun.

But the recent trend of bitcoin treasury companies like MSTR, with some large enough to potentially get in to the S&P 500, I have to say I am starting to worry about systemic risk. Its becoming "heads I win, tails you lose".

The previous bitcoin crashes were non issues to the broader economy. IF the capital inflows to crypto continue like they are... it will get to a situation where a crypto crash will cause a financial crisis. It seems likely to me that we taxpayers will be taking the fall when the cryptobro's need a bailout under the name of 'contagion and systemic risk!'.. like in 2008