patrick.net

So if you borrow money to, say, buy income producing assets, when is the tax INVOLUNTARILY paid : IE you do not control the time you pay taxes on it.

Yet we tax productivity immediately and involuntarily: There is no deciding when to pay income taxes from productivity for maximum benefit.

Sales Taxes on financial instruments. Sales taxes are paid immediately on a tradesman's tools, right? AND on the income derived from that tool and labor behind it. With no decision as to the time or other circumstances; it's paid in the year (or shorter depending on income) it's earned.

Money making money is taxed extremely preferentially and voluntarily, versus productive income based on labor.

One thing the US does not have is a capital shortage; if anything we have too much capital chasing too few opportunities, which is why we slide from asset bubble to asset bubble like a drunken sailor since about the end of the 90s. So there is no economic justification for this treatment.

your stock growing at 10% because of inflation, government spending fiat. that’s not free, inflation makes a lot of people very poor, but makes rich richer as their stuff is inflation protected.

its empty gain. hollow victory.

The price of gold has pretty much tripled since 2019. This is massive inflation caused by 14-figure ($20+ Trillion) money printing, not to mention the brushfire wars that continually threaten WWIII.

stereotomy says

($20+ Trillion) money printing

do you mean global money supply ?

M2 was $15.3 trillion in 2019

M2 is now $22 trillion

.

Fortwaye says

your stock growing at 10% because of inflation, government spending fiat. that’s not free, inflation makes a lot of people very poor, but makes rich richer as their stuff is inflation protected.

its empty gain. hollow victory.

you would hope stock market price appreciation is predominantly from innovation and productivity gains

.

Stock appreciation is definitely composed of both inflation and true value increase. Not clear which is greater.

Patrick says

Stock appreciation is definitely composed of both inflation and true value increase. Not clear which is greater.

iA large part of it is interest rate manipulation, over longer periods of time, like decades.

AmericanKulak says

So if you borrow money to, say, buy income producing assets, when is the tax INVOLUNTARILY paid : IE you do not control the time you pay taxes on it.

What are you talking about? You never pay taxes on a loan because it is not income. Does not matter if you use the loan to buy investments or a new Ford. As far as taxes on investments, you pay taxes when you have realized gains, dividends, or rents, irrelevant of whether you borrowed to buy those assets or won them in a craps game.

MolotovCocktail says

Patrick says

There is no "lack of workers", ever. Anyone who parrots that bullshit needs to be slapped, *hard*. Repeatedly.

It's all about the pay rate. At high enough pay, there is never a lack of American workers.

https://prospect.org/labor/2025-05-27-solving-shortage-low-wage-workers/

How to recover?

Hire Americans.

HeadSet says

What are you talking about?

The assets you brought with the loan money. When do you pay capital gains? When you CHOOSE to sell.

You don't CHOOSE when to pay taxes on productive labor salaries/wages/1099 income. Nor choose when to pay sales tax on the tools for that job.

Why not tax money making money every year?

If your stocks go from $100k to $110k, you pay taxes on $10k on the gains that very year, just like somebody making $110k in salary pays taxes that year, not at some future of their choosing. Whether or not you sell the stock.

If I think Congress is going to cut the income tax rates next year, can I delay paying the IRS on salary income ton this year's salary income?

It's wild to me that people can't see the dichotomy of treatment for skill-time money trades, and capital making money. There's no severe capital shortage that merits this treatment, people will always prefer to have money working for them.

Paying taxes on unrealized gains just doesn't work.

Let's say someone was stupid enough to buy a typical house in SF for about $1.4 million. Then Covid monetary stupidity came in and prices go up 20%. Not many people have an extra $280k they can just flush to pay taxes. This would force people from their homes, farms and force small businesses to fold through no fault of their own, just stupid tax policy.

The government would own everything. The people nothing.

AmericanKulakMaximumTrumper says

If I think Congress is going to cut the income tax rates next year, can I delay paying the IRS on salary income ton this year's salary income?

Yes, change your W-4.

AmericanKulakMaximumTrumper says

If your stocks go from $100k to $110k, you pay taxes on $10k on the gains that very year, just like somebody making $110k in salary pays taxes that year, not at some future of their choosing. Whether or not you sell the stock.

You do realize that the wage earner has an actual gain, while the stock is just paper? Sell that stock to get an actual gain and it will be taxed the same as wages. The be a valid comparison, have the wage earner tell his boss to defer that $10k increase until a future date when the wage earner decides to take it as a bonus.

Misc says

Paying taxes on unrealized gains just doesn't work.

Property taxes are defacto unrealized gains in most states.

The only sane policy CA still has left is Prop 13, put in place to limit such abuse.

Also, it's unconstitutional for the Feds to levy such taxes w/o apportionment - except for income taxes.

So I don't know why ppl get all bombastic and make all these spurious claims.

Patrick says

How to recover?

Hire Americans.

What most Americans fail to realize is the fact that the annual cost of servicing the National Debt is now over $1 TRILLION per year, and that is while interest rates are still relatively low. In order to put into perspective how massive that interest payment cost is, consider this; the $1 TRILLION in annual interest payments exceeds the entire annual expenditures of the entire United States military.

While the Trump/Musk/DOGE cuts appear to be dramatic, they represent, in reality, a drop in the proverbial bucket. It doesn't come close to actually stopping, let alone reversing, the accumulation of the National Debt.

HeadSet says

AmericanKulakMaximumTrumper says

If your stocks go from $100k to $110k, you pay taxes on $10k on the gains that very year, just like somebody making $110k in salary pays taxes that year, not at some future of their choosing. Whether or not you sell the stock.

You do realize that the wage earner has an actual gain, while the stock is just paper? Sell that stock to get an actual gain and it will be taxed the same as wages. The be a valid comparison, have the wage earner tell his boss to defer that $10k increase until a future date when the wage earner decides to take it as a bonus.

Cap gains should either be Zero or profits on stock sales should be taxed at a low flat income tax, 20% tops.for everybody. As long as income tax is progressive and sky high cap gains should be zero. Trump better come through

mell says

Cap gains should either be Zero or profits on stock sales should be taxed at a low flat income tax, 20% tops.for everybody. As long as income tax is progressive and sky high cap gains should be zero. Trump better come through

Profits on stock sales are already at 20% as long as held over a year. Since you mentioned "Cap gains" and "profits on stock sales" in the same sentence, I assume you're referring to Cap gains on houses, already at zero for the first $500k. I believe that "Cap Gains" on a residence is an illusion, all one is doing is getting taxed on inflation.

Thune allowed a Reid-era bureaucrat at the Senate to pull parts out of the BBB as "Not related to spending"

This includes stronger restrictions to Medicaid and Benefits, esp. to 'refugees' and illegals.

If the medicaid and benefit restrictions in the BBB pass, the illegals and fakefugees will demand higher wages to compensate their loss of taxpayer subsidy

If they demand higher wages, this eliminates the whole POINT of them from the standpoint of meatpackers, lettuce plantation owners, warehouse managers, etc.

HeadSet says

mell says

Cap gains should either be Zero or profits on stock sales should be taxed at a low flat income tax, 20% tops.for everybody. As long as income tax is progressive and sky high cap gains should be zero. Trump better come through

Profits on stock sales are already at 20% as long as held over a year. Since you mentioned "Cap gains" and "profits on stock sales" in the same sentence, I assume you're referring to Cap gains on houses, already at zero for the first $500k. I believe that "Cap Gains" on a residence is an illusion, all one is doing is getting taxed on inflation.

Shouldn't matter how long you hold anything, and the 20% should also be flat income tax, sure right now it's 20% but your income tax is probably closer to 35%, pushing your AGI, exposing you to all kinds of other crap. I want all of that eliminated, any gains distribution (house, stock, etc.) should be taxed as regular income at a low flat rate, and 20% is probably the.high watermark off acceptable. No special provisions, exemption or penalties. Of course the CPAs would lobby hard against it, but its the fairest way of taxation (other than no taxes).

You do realize that the wage earner has an actual gain,

Gain? He trades skill and irreplaceable time for money. If anything, it's an even-steven swap.

One also can't pass on your wages/skill trades to one's kids in a will for obvious reasons.

Whereas assets can be handed down across generations from the long dead.

Those who command a high salary or skill compensation (top tier surgeons for example, expert accountants, etc) are the most taxed people in society, with few mechanisms to mitigate it. Our system treats capital way better than skill.

(Edit: Handing down asses. ha. I'm glad nobody left me some old asses)

need to get Debt to GDP ratio back to where it was just before the COVID pandemic started, which is around 105%

No what we need is a huge increase in earnings for the bottom 90% of wage earners.

Our current economic system has screwed over people who work for a living compared to people who simply have capital to put to work.

https://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/

28. Land sales in NV and Utah to reduce housing prices.

This land isn’t near metros, and won’t be for “housing.” It would be sold for industrial grazing or alfalfa farms. Or warehouses. You can see the difference with counties in Nevada/Utah that are privately held: sage and native plants removed, cheat grass and dirt everywhere, bird and animal populations gone. In fact, western Utah is already owned by Chinese farming interests, and it’s desolate.

These lands are some of the last wilderness in America, part of our heritage, and should be preserved. Whatever money is squeezed out of sales to alfalfa farmers or etc isn’t much, but the land is destroyed for our lifetimes.

AD says

need to get Debt to GDP ratio back to where it was just before the COVID pandemic started, which is around 105%

That would be a good start.

I just finished reading the One Big Beautiful Bill. It's an historic and transformative piece of legislation that reverses the last four year assault on American workers and will unleash prosperity & security.

Here are the FACTS:
American workers finally get a bill for them and not for lobbyists or special interest groups: Full deductibility of interest paid on loans for American made vehicles.
No income taxes on tips, overtime, or social security. On top of this, the OBBB prevents the largest tax increase in American history, saving each family about $5,000 in extra taxes per year.
Under Biden, over 10 million illegals invaded our Country. They drove up our housing costs, insurance premiums, lowered the wages of American workers, crippled our cities, and crime surged. The OBBB gets ICE the resources to get them the hell out!
Raising kids has gotten really expensive. The OBBB gives working families $2,200 per child, per year. In addition, the OBBB puts $1,000 into a fund for your kids that can grow substantially so they have a nest egg when they hit 25 years old.
Health care is a massive expense for some families. The OBBB provides funding for health savings accounts. We also strengthen Medicaid for those that need it and finally put a work requirement for able bodied adults.
Biden and the radical Democrats made the world more dangerous and America weaker. The OBBB makes an historic investment in our military and our Coast Guard.
As anyone who has flown lately knows, our nation’s air traffic control system desperately needs to be modernized. This should have happened years ago and the OBBB gets it done.
The OBBB is the first bill that any Congress in my lifetime will have passed that starts to control our spending. We end the Green New Scam. We can get all of this done today. LFG!
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1938994316544000250.html

Our Coast Guard is dangerously weak and DEI'd. The USCG no longer trains for nor is equipped with ASW weaponry anymore (barring a handful of ships retaining pre-21st Century capabilities)

Oh look, Thom Tillis an infamous log rolling, pork lovin' swamp creature, is on the same side as the Dr. Nos and Massies.

It must be because Tillis sees wisdom, not that he's angry about medicaid and benefits being restricted to exclude groups employers love to hire - because these groups will take lower wages as much of their life is subsidized like a live-at-home teenager.

Murkowski hasn't voted yet, shit.

Vance to the Captiol

AmericanKulakMaximumTrumper says

Full deductibility of interest paid on loans for American made vehicles.

That will just raise the price of vehicles.

AmericanKulakMaximumTrumper says

the OBBB puts $1,000 into a fund for your kids that can grow substantially so they have a nest egg when they hit 25 years old.

Free money is never a good idea. Just means that prices will rise in 25 years for stuff that young adults buy.

AmericanKulakMaximumTrumper says

Our Coast Guard is dangerously weak and DEI'd. The USCG no longer trains for nor is equipped with ASW weaponry anymore (barring a handful of ships retaining pre-21st Century capabilities)

Yeah, and Trump fired Admiral Fagan (Commandant of USCG) on his first day in office :-/

Must have been that bad for him to fire someone on his first day on the job

.

also bigger military spending because why not. increased salt to 40k because rich people need more handouts. standard deduction unchanged so pay taxes plebs.

it’s a bad bill. huge too so ton of pork. no one read whole thing, it’s not been publicly vetted as it was in committees.

According to this senator....

The real reason so many hate this bill.


https://x.com/DC_Draino/status/1940125139343208887

"Lo siento Senior Meatpacker, mi esposa y nos hijos no tienen seguro de medico no mas. Necessito mas dinero por hora, por favor"

AmericanKulakMaximumTrumper says

"Sorry Senior Meatpacker, mi esposa no tiene seguro medico no mas. Necessito mas dinero por hora, por favor"

Yes, and the same would happen if the Dems won and the illegal was given amnesty. The amnesty guy would no longer fear deportation and demand higher wages. Then amnesty boy would be replaced with a new illegal. But now "uppity" illegals cannot be replaced with fresh blood.

The thing that will bankrupt this country more than any other policy is flooding the country with illegal immigration and then giving those migrants generous benefits.

The OBBB fixes this problem. And therefore it must pass.
https://x.com/JDVance/status/1939889090654052772

HeadSet says

AmericanKulakMaximumTrumper says

If your stocks go from $100k to $110k, you pay taxes on $10k on the gains that very year, just like somebody making $110k in salary pays taxes that year, not at some future of their choosing. Whether or not you sell the stock.

You do realize that the wage earner has an actual gain, while the stock is just paper? Sell that stock to get an actual gain and it will be taxed the same as wages. The be a valid comparison, have the wage earner tell his boss to defer that $10k increase until a future date when the wage earner decides to take it as a bonus.

You shouldn’t be able to borrow against it either then. This paper wealth stuff has really fucked up society.

I think I like Georgism.

Northbound and Down
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOgUaFkpS3Y