patrick.net

The US eventually needs more than 2 parties, other countries have plenty parties and are more peaceful than the US. The first point may be true, but that's always the same argument, when the party leans to the left its taking away votes from the Dems and when they lean to the right ot takes votes away from the Republicans. No reason to oppose it. If Musk had funded the party years ago when he still was the lefts darling they would have howled that he's undermining the demonrats. Maybe it will take away roughly equal voters from both parties, or just not take off at all and linger around 1%. The US political system is broken with the uniparty similar to countries which are splintered by too many parties. Nader and Ross Perot were good candidates

mell says

The US eventually needs more than 2 parties, other countries have plenty parties and are more peaceful than the US.

Nope. Other countries have proportional representation and government structures for governing coalitions AFTER elections.

America doesn't really have political parties like in other countries. Instead, it has big tent coalitions composed of factions that would be individual parties in other countries. The coalition has to be formed before elections just to be able to win them, let alone govern.

That's what Duverger's Law is all about. And when attempts are made to form third parties and run with them, they usually just fuck things up.

The GOP replacing the Whigs were a rare exception. And that is because the Whigs were fracturing anyway. And the election result led to the Secession. And that led to the Civil War.

Both Clinton and Wilson only got 42% of the popular vote. That meant that 58% of voters chose someone else other than them. Not good.

You want America to have more parties? Then our form of government needs to constitutionally altered.

MolotovCocktail says

-reduce debt, responsible spending only on Green Subsidies and Solar and Windfarms
-modernize military with ai/robotics, cut pensions and benefits and force size
-pro tech, accelerate to win in ai by uncapping the H1B ceiling to infinity
-less regulation across board but especially in energy - all offshore windfarms
-free speech for Al Jezeera
-pro natalist with a Bachelor Tax on Men-only

MolotovCocktail says

You want America to have more parties? Then our form of government needs to constitutionally altered.

While it's true that proportional representation suits a multi-party structure better, esp. the more parties there are, this is a straw man and duvergers law is certainly no law. And the reason is that candidates can drop out and back one of the favorites to their liking to secure enough electoral votes, and if nonobdy gets enough electoral votes, then the 12th amendment has the answer to the follow up process. There's no problem.

MolotovCocktail says

modernize military with ai/robotics

Skynet approves.

Our elections systems don't do well with more than 2 parties due to vote splitting... but ranked choice/approval voting or other voting methods can fix that.

Some local elections use it. I think its the way to go if you want more than 2 voices.

I want to know how Elon thinks his party is going to get politicians more dedicated to civic virtue than to their own financial self-interest and the next election.

Patrick says

I want to know how Elon thinks his party is going to get politicians more dedicated to civic virtue than to their own financial self-interest and the next election.

Businessmen interested in running only once?

HeadSet says

Patrick says

I want to know how Elon thinks his party is going to get politicians more dedicated to civic virtue than to their own financial self-interest and the next election.

Businessmen interested in running only once?

he isn’t running for potus, he can’t. he has a brilliant idea. control legislature by having 5-8 key congressional seats. as long as rest is 50/50 you control the outcome.

He will find out quickly that “having 5-8 key congressional seats” doesn’t let him control anything. Let’s see how loyal “his” candidates remain when the globalists start exerting their influences.

The was an “American Party” that was strongest in influence 50 or so years ago. It’s even harder now to have an impact than back then because the communists have organized legions of people who never used to vote, to vote straight democrat regardless of the candidates.

Trump did it the right way, he took over the party and made it better. If Elon wants real reform he will work within one of the parties. Why is he now trying to play politics again? He’s butt hurt that Trump lost that lovin’ feeling?

Elon’s wealth is primarily from government contracts, tax credits and such. Now he is butt hurt that Trump sent his THC stained fingers back to Texas. Grow up and work on making the world a better place Elon, politics just isn’t your place.

mell says

this is a straw man and duvergers law is certainly no law.

Hey! That means the Law of Gravity isn't a 'law' either. Care to step off the roof of a twelve story building then?

Go ahead. The 12th Amendment has your back, so don't worry.

12th Amendment is for when things go to shit, not for when things are working.

DeficitHawk says

but ranked choice/approval voting or other voting methods can fix that

Should be inherently unconstitutional. One person, One vote also means One vote, One person. Ranked choice violates that.

But the confusing nature of it is what kills it. Several of those local governments that tried it are abandoning it.

Patrick says

I want to know how Elon thinks his party is going to get politicians more dedicated to civic virtue than to their own financial self-interest and the next election.

Good luck with that.

Musk is a genius. Geniuses don't know how to really get along with people and that makes them eventually unlikable. Musk is a self admitted Aspy. Too weird to be good in politics.

Again, there's no problem with 3rd party candidates. Perot did take away votes fairly evenly, and even when not, e.g. in the case of Nader, it's the responsibility of the other parties/candidates to address the issues in a satisfying manner. No party owns a citizen's vote.

mell says

Again, there's no problem with 3rd party candidates. Perot did take away votes fairly evenly, and even when not, e.g. in the case of Nader, it's the responsibility of the other parties/candidates to address the issues in a satisfying manner. No party owns a citizen's vote.

that’s presidential race, Elon is thinking congressional races.

there are states third party congressional candidates can win.

Fortwaye says

mell says

Again, there's no problem with 3rd party candidates. Perot did take away votes fairly evenly, and even when not, e.g. in the case of Nader, it's the responsibility of the other parties/candidates to address the issues in a satisfying manner. No party owns a citizen's vote.

that’s presidential race, Elon is thinking congressional races.

there are states third party congressional candidates can win.

Agreed. It's definitely a much much lower bar. I'm not necessarily agreeing with him but it's totally within his right if he can convince the populace. We know he himself at least cannot become president (a natural born American of the same party of course could).

ElYorsh says

Musk is a genius. Geniuses don't know how to really get along with people and that makes them eventually unlikable. Musk is a self admitted Aspy. Too weird to be good in politics.

Yeah I agree, chances of this taking off are slim, he could sponsor a charismatic figurehead though.

I think @Patrick should run in CA! Any office

I'm awaiting my call from Elon!

i worked for Elon before on campaign for Trump. he’s a smart fella, but people who ran campaign were very inexperienced. it was just brute force spam approach.

Ross Perot is sending Elon messages from the grave.

ElYorsh says

Musk is a genius. Geniuses don't know how to really get along with people and that makes them eventually unlikable. Musk is a self admitted Aspy. Too weird to be good in politics.

Like Nicola Tesla was.

mell says

Perot did take away votes fairly evenly,

False. Where rhe hell do you get this bullshit from?

mell says

Again, there's no problem with 3rd party candidates.

mell says

it's the responsibility of the other parties/candidates to address the issues in a satisfying manner. No party owns a citizen's vote.

The party that wins owns the vote, no matter what gaslighting spin you want to believe otherwise.

When the majority votes A but the vote is split between two or more A type parties/candidates, then the opposing party of B OWNS THE FUCKING VOTE, period. ALL A votes are wasted votes.

At least the folks at No Labels figured this out. The math doesn't lie.

A wasted vote is a) a vote that went to the losing side or b) an extra vote more than is needed to win. California and Wyoming are thus states that produce excessive amounts of wasted votes.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasted_vote

And spare me the sophomoric bullshit of "There's no such thing as a wasted vote!"

Voting third party is a wasted vote as far as electoral outcomes in first-past-the-post electoral systems are concerned.

Just ask the 58% voters who voted against Bill Clinton in '92. If Perot 'split the votes evenly', that wouldn't have happened. He took more votes from Bush.

In America, there is also the added caveat that they shift $$$ donations, too. In America Party's case, that's a lot of SV tech lord billionaire money that the Dems won't get.

Third parties CAN influence one or both of the main parties into co-opting elements of their platforms one way or another. The budget did get balanced by Clinton and the GOP Congress, if only briefly. Progressive Era third parties eventually had much of their platforms co-opted as well.

MolotovCocktail says

Just ask the 58% voters who voted against Bill Clinton in '92. If Perot 'split the votes evenly', that wouldn't have happened. He took more votes from Bush.

Correct.

MolotovCocktail says

Just ask the 58% voters who voted against Bill Clinton in '92. If Perot 'split the votes evenly', that wouldn't have happened. He took more votes from Bush.

Wrong. This has been revised, the common stance these days is that it was a mostly even take. No vote is wasted if you vote for what you believe in. Stop citing Wikipedia for once lol.

https://split-ticket.org/2023/04/01/examining-ross-perots-impact-on-the-1992-presidential-election/

mell says

Wrong. This has been revised, the common stance these days is that it was a mostly even take

Bullshit. Complete bullshit. Clinton only got 42% of the vote. Lesse...100-42 = 58.

58% of voters voted for someone other than Clinton.

mell says

No vote is wasted if you vote for what you believe in

Bullshit. Wasted Vote is a technical term in political science. It's real.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0261379413000930

As for that bullshit article:

Of responding Perot voters surveyed by VRS, 51% preferred Clinton as a second choice compared to 42% for Bush.

So fucking what? They didn't get any 'second choice'. They only got one. The one they chose. Everything else is 'so fucking what'.

You deliberately trolling or are you just insisting others should accept your imaginary thinking as 'facts' on this matter?

I am starting to believe you are trolling.

Elon has proven he can't be trusted, just by his actions with X and Grok.

He ingratiated himself with the netizens when he bought X, because of his pro 1A stance. But he has since back pedaled and people are getting banned, you're ghosted unless you buy a verified check. The only people who reply to any threads I post are bots trying to convince me they will give me a million dollars if I just reach out to them.

He has allowed Grok to be an oppressively wokster, he's very tone deaf. He's an idealist and not a politician or even a patriot for that matter.
He will most likely stack the American Party leadership with Indians, Liberals and RINOs. While beating his chest about how pro American his party is.

I think his party is going to shave politically unsavvy people from both parties. I don't think he will garner any real Woke Democrats or Conservative MAGA republicans.

His party will ultimately be hijacked by Soros bucks and WEF groomed psychopaths..

Tenpoundbass says

I think his party is going to shave politically unsavvy people from both parties

Esp the morons who think there is 'no such thing as a wasted vote'.

Don't think it will attract a lot of Liberals - they hate his guts as much they do Trump.

Now, if the party goes all out after the Abundance vote, it can cause probs for the Dems for sure. The DLC types who want to use Abundance to clear out the wackos in the Dem party might throw in that towel. Or at least enough of them might.

My guess is that it will fold like No Labels.

MolotovCocktail says

mell says

Perot did take away votes fairly evenly,

False. Where rhe hell do you get this bullshit from?

mell says

Again, there's no problem with 3rd party candidates.

I supported Ross Perot, had he not ran, would have not shown up on election day. I believe 90% of his supporters felt the same way. I also supported Nader every time he ran.

The problem isn't 3rd party candidates. The problem will be a real Party financed by Musk capitol, Soros and other billionaires will follow suit.
There will be as many as 6 parties on the ballot. They will convince idiots that Jungle primaries are the best way to deal with so many parties. Because you'll have 5 parties backed by the same billionaires, bashing the populist candidate while suppressing the populist candidate. Nobody will win over 40% of the vote. So run offs will be a common thing. Squeezing out the populist.

The problem isn't a 3rd party candidate, the threat is the finances, the media and 4 or 5 parties putting up candidates. We'll see European style elections on steroids..

Boycott Elon in every way. I think that is the only way he will respond. He's just a disingenuous prick. If he feels that this party is hurting him rather than helping him. He will pull the plug on it before the midterm elections.

America has a fuckton of 3rd parties. They never go anywhere. Candidates pick one and run on it time and time again. But the truth is every 3rd party is just all hat and no sizzle. But a party that has marketing and resources like Musk can put behind it. Then the candidates will be moot, just like the Republican party and Democrat party. Because nobody wants to actually join the party and be part of the candidate selection process, or have a voting say in their party.
So HB1 visa Indians will fill those spots.

3rd party candidates are no threat. A viable marketed Party is a threat. If it's a real institution that has the resources to bombard media and mailers with their logo, and campaign material. Until now every 3rd party candidate just used the moniker, but every dime they got through campaign finances, went to marketing them and their election. Never their party, which is why 3rd parties go nowhere in this country.

This will be an earth shaking turn of events.

Two notorious Trump critics—billionaire Mark Cuban and disgraced former White House Communications Director Anthony Scaramucci—have signaled interest in joining Elon Musk’s newly announced “America Party,” a political faction Musk claims is aimed at restoring “freedom” to the American people.

I just hope Elon is so tone deaf he embraces them. Which I'm sure he will. He's not nor never was Authentically MAGA, and he doesn't have a clue what a huge mistep it would be embracing them.

Both Perot and Nader were good candidates. Even Clinton was a successful president by most metrics, those who whine and blame about lost votes usually belong to a party/candidate that has failed to convince enough voters. I'm confident Boosh senior would have left office with a worse approval rating.

So here's a scenario to explain my concerns about more than one party, and everyone's refusal to join their party, or comprehend what I say they need to do.

So the second coming of Trump comes along and decides he should run on the American Party.
But Elon and his Indians has been grooming a WEF future young leader recipient to run. The Trump 2.0 candidate starts out polling the WEF critter.
Elon's Indians take him to court and have him thrown off their ticket, just like the Democrats did to RFK Jr. Everyone then says. "Well it's Elon's party, he can do what ever he wants. Political parties are private and Elon owns it."

But in reality the only way to have prevented that would have been if concerned citizens showed up at the first party meeting in their county and got a seat at the table. Which they should be doing now, in the Republican party.

The American party will just be same old, same ole.

mell says

those who whine and blame about lost votes usually belong to a party/candidate that has failed to convince enough voters

I thought you pitched the BS "there is no such thing as a lost vote"?

MolotovCocktail says

mell says

those who whine and blame about lost votes usually belong to a party/candidate that has failed to convince enough voters

I thought you pitched the BS "there is no such thing as a lost vote"?

There isn't, only a lost opportunity to convince the voter by the other candidates/parties. Trump played this election almost perfectly by harnessing as much support as he could from various fractions (Musk, RFK). It's what you make out of it. If a 3rd party candidate forms and gets serious support, there is a need and political void for it. Nothing wrong with it